DWI checkpoints

[Rafe Hollister]

According to ODF, 19% of traffic fatalities are caused by drivers age 16-20. I'll buy that. It seems pretty reasonable to me. I looked up some statistics and the closest demographic group I could find says that in 2005, 17.9% of Missouri residents were age 15-24. Let's just venture a guess that about 13% were age 16-20. So we have approximately 13% of drivers causing 19% of the fatalities.

We also know that checkpoints routinely find less than 1% of drivers are legally impaired. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration there were 1257 traffic deaths in Missouri in 2005. Of those, 32% were caused by a driver with a .08 BAC or higher. We can figure that less than 1% of drivers are causing nearly one-third of all traffic deaths.

I really don't see that your comparison is relevant, ODF. It seems to be apples & oranges. However I will agree that mandatory safety classes should be instituted in MO. My kids will take it. It was required in IL when I was a teenager.

[Rafe Hollister]

Data such as "Number of miles driven" by age would hold more weight but this is good enough to give a reasonable comparison.

[Outdoorsfool]

Rafe - This isn't "according to ODF"...this is according to a report that was released yesterday:

MO 5th deadliest for young drivers
Of the 1,200 traffic fatalities in Missouri in 2005, 244 or more than 19% involved a driver aged 16 to 20.

Posted: Monday, July 02, 2007 at 4:20 PM

ST. LOUIS (AP) -- Two national physician groups that track the states for youth-driving fatalities say Missouri is the fifth-deadliest. The list is based on each state's motor-vehicle fatalities involving 16- to 20-year-old drivers as a percentage of its overall traffic fatalities. The groups say youth-related fatalities declined nationally, but are still a disproportionately high percentage of traffic deaths.

In 2005, more than 7,000 people died in youth-related traffic crashes nationally, more than 16% of all traffic fatalities in the US.

Of the 1,200 traffic fatalities in Missouri that year, 244 or more than 19% involved a driver aged 16 to 20.

The third-annual report is by the groups End Needless Death on Our Roadways and the Eastern Association for the Surgery of Trauma.

(Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.
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I'm not trying to compare the two.

Here is a sobering fact, pardon the pun, based on your statistics 68% of traffic deaths are NOT caused by intoxicated drivers.

But by all means...let's keep infringing on the civil liberties of 99% of the traveling public while our young people account for 19% of all traffic fatalities. The basic concept of these checkpoints was upheld by the courts because it was a "minimal" intrusion. However, when you have a clusterphuck of a checkpoint like they did in Morgan County on Friday of Memorial weekend and people were held up for close to an hour at some instances, when does the intrustion cease to be "minimal" and become illegal. But I guess in your police state, the end justifies the means, without consideration of any other factors.

Oh and if I'm not mistaken, that less than 1% of intoxicated drivers is based solely on the number of VEHICLES (a/k/a drivers) stopped....which means the total # of citizens being "inspected" is FAR greater and that less than 1% is MUCH less when you factor in the TOTAL number of individuals that are affected by those checkpoints.

[Rafe Hollister]

Outdoorsfool said:
Rafe - This isn't "according to ODF"...this is according to a report that was released yesterday:

OK, according to that report. Fine.

I'm not trying to compare the two.

Yes you were.

Here is a sobering fact, pardon the pun, based on your statistics 68% of traffic deaths are NOT caused by intoxicated drivers.

And 32% of the deaths are caused by less than 1% of the drivers.

But by all means...let's keep infringing on the civil liberties of 99% of the traveling public while our young people account for 19% of all traffic fatalities. The basic concept of these checkpoints was upheld by the courts because it was a "minimal" intrusion. However, when you have a clusterphuck of a checkpoint like they did in Morgan County on Friday of Memorial weekend and people were held up for close to an hour at some instances, when does the intrustion cease to be "minimal" and become illegal. But I guess in your police state, the end justifies the means, without consideration of any other factors.

My "police state"? How many checkpoints are performed? How often is anyone ever stopped at a checkpoint? You're making it sound as if these things are all over the place every weekend and that I support such. The fact is there are probably less than 5 across the state in the average week and less than 10 in the busiest week. I've said before, wolfpacks are more efficient. However, data gathered during checkpoints is a valuable tool for local law enforcement agencies.

Oh and if I'm not mistaken, that less than 1% of intoxicated drivers is based solely on the number of VEHICLES (a/k/a drivers) stopped....which means the total # of citizens being "inspected" is FAR greater and that less than 1% is MUCH less when you factor in the TOTAL number of individuals that are affected by those checkpoints.

Isn't the percentage of drivers what is in question? Would you be okay with only drivers being checked for intoxication as opposed to other outstanding warrants and the like with all passengers? Have you ever participated in a checkpoint, either with LEO or as an inconvenienced driver? The officer has a quick chat with the driver, observing (mostly for his safety) all the passengers. If he believes someone is acting suspiciously, he will question further. The average time the officer spends on each vehicle will depend on the traffic flow at the time, but usually less than 15 seconds per stop. That's enough time to determine one's sobriety.

[Outdoorsfool]

usually less than 15 seconds per stop.

Since you are all about facts, do you have any to back up that comment. The officer MAY only spend 15 seconds at the window of the vehicle, but that is not how long the person/people spend at the checkpoint. C'mon now, not even you are that dense. I know 3 people that went through the Morgan County checkpoint over Memorial weekend...the quickest one through was in line almost 25 minutes....the longest one was in line OVER 50 MINUTES.

I'll type this real slow, so you can understand, I was not trying to compare the two things. What I was saying was it was interesting that we can set up checkpoints to catch less than 1% of the drivers out there that are impaired, but we can't seem to require driver's education classes in schools when 19% of all fatalities involve drivers under 21 years of age. Simple statement....no comparison, period.

[Rafe Hollister]

I'm estimating that time simply by observations at the checkpoints I've worked. I didn't track each stop, but I'm sure if you would ask your local law enforcement agency to allow you to observe, they would be willing. Sit there and time each stop as well as how long each vehicle has to wait. Get back to us with the results. The one in Morgan County you obsess over is definitely an exception. Like much else in life, things get screwed up sometimes and this was likely a result of poor planning.

Do you think 19% of fatalities being caused by approximately 17% of drivers is more serious than 32% of fatalities caused by less than 1% of drivers? Believe me, this area is very well aware of teen fatalities. The town of Carl Junction has lost at least 3 teens each of the last 3 years. In the last month, Jasper County has lost 2 that I'm aware of; one from Carthage and one from Joplin. I'd also be interested in knowing how many of those teen-related traffic deaths are also alcohol-related. Hmmmm.....

[BornBad]

'Just glad I was a dumb donkied teen-young adult in BFE. A gazillion unpopulated backroads to go down and get loaded on. Difficult to ponder what would have happened with my vocational efforts, 'had I got a DWI or other criminal infraction. It was just the thing we did back then. Heck, I remember my driver's ed teacher joking with us about it and providing suggestions, in a public school classroom, for not being "obviously impaired" while driving. Not sure what I am saying here. I hate seeing big brother flex his muscles, but I do understand his place.

[Big John]

Outdoorsfool said:
Big John - Give your son a pat on the back and tell him the good ole US of A is proud of him for his service!

Thanks ODF, I just hope he keeps his head down!

[Tigerhaze]

Rafe Hollister said: You're making it sound as if these things are all over the place every weekend and that I support such. The fact is there are probably less than 5 across the state in the average week and less than 10 in the busiest week. I've said before, wolfpacks are more efficient. However, data gathered during checkpoints is a valuable tool for local law enforcement agencies.

The only reason we don't see more checkpoint locations more of the time is lack of funding; my understanding is that checkpoints are very resource-intensive relative to wolfpacks.I still think that there should be probable cause to be stopped by law enforcement for any length of time. As for data, I am assuming that you mean statistical data on the numbers of "non-violating" drivers stopped relative to "violating" drivers. I don't think that law enfocrement really needs to have that extra data by infringing on our liberties.



Rafe, there was a story last night up here in the KC metro area of a teenage girl drowining in her SUV wehen she tried to drive through a swollen creek- she was 16 and presumably in her parent's vehicle. I agree that teenage drivers think they are invincible and don't have the experience to make good driving judgements. I think more education for new drivers is a good thing; when I was a teenager I had driver's ed but the simulators were pretty crappy. I've heard they have new simulators in other states based on new flight simulators that are very much "virtual realty" based and have helped teenage drivers a lot. We could put the money from checkpoints towards providing more education to teenage drivers and probably make a bigger impact.

[SAMCRO]

Oh, good times, and good memories. I suspect ODF is still a bumbling drunk mad about the possibility of being caught in a roadblock effort.