Backyard bucks....

[PoisonSnake]

Ifn' I had that kind of jack, I know what I would do. I'd buy another 100 acres north and south of the HFA. I'd put in a couple of more food plots and call it good. Screw that chit of trying to farm for big bucks. I just want to kill them.

[Warmouth]

That's about as good as a 'regular Joe' type is going to do PS. Get a decent size property, get some decent feed on it, and just shoot what makes you happy. I also get irritated by the buck farming. It's an adulteration of the sport.

[PoisonSnake]

Dave, I will also say that I find it pretty fun to put in food plots (albeit they are pretty small considering the size of my properties) and run cameras. One thing is certain though...; if you build it, they will come. So far, in my limited capacity, I have come to the conclusion that ladino clover is hard to beat. I do plan on putting in some soybeans there at the house this year, however.

[SAMCRO]

I didn't say you had to join in on the bashing.

On the conjecture...I'm a hell of a good guesser. You know like I do that the costs have been substantial. No reason to be coy about that.

I am surprised that you are interested in Woods finding the top end of chit genetics though, instead of someone finding the top end of the best genetics. First time I've heard of you slumming it second rate style. Congrats??

I will say that if he starts producing top end booners from Taney, that he will have turned the whitetail industry on its ear.

It's usually easy to figure out when the "other guy" is unable to wrap his mind around his own thoughts, let alone tangle with yours. He reverts to pettiness.

I would give you that I think the costs would be high. I would also contend that neither of us know what the costs have been, what they continue to be, or what they would now be if we attempted replication. The replication is, of course, the final product, and what's most important.

A friend of mine (Kirk....be afraid, very afraid) just finished designing his own bow riser, went through the patenting process, and had a prototype machined. The cost of all of this is now north of $5000. It doesn't mean that bow, should it make it into production, would cost the end user $5000. The developer eats the cost up front, and this is made up for down the road through refinement and sales.

Of course, by some estimations I've read here, Kirk is wasting his time. We already know how compound bows work, and we already know what's best. So, he would have been better off to have not put thought and detail into a design, but rather should have purchased a <insert favorite brand here>.

There's merit to that idea, but one would have to be correct in what the end goal was, and one would have to also be correct in that we know all there is to know about bow design and ergonomics. Of course, one would also be naive if they believed that. There's always room for improvement, and there's always room to learn.

As far as "second class bucks", I think all of us here would be very happy with what a researcher would consider a second class buck. If any of us were truly interested in top-end deer, we wouldn't waste our time hunting in Missouri. It's a known fact that top-end bucks more frequently come from other states. So, I get your point, and your intended jab, but it really doesn't hit home because your intentions were easy to read.

On the same issue, good research that works in southwest Missouri is good research that could be applied anywhere, even those areas we know statistically have a high quality of deer and better top-end potential. This is a stated goal of Woods' research project, making the "second class" buck argument, although already incorrect, even more so.

For the record, according to pictures and writing, they already are producing Booners in Taney County, an accomplishment in and of itself.

The initial goal of this little project, by the way, and how it ties in to commerce is the guys work in foot plot development. That's one of his money-makers - development of seed formulas and planting techniques. The thought was that food plots that could be made to work in the Ozarks could be made to work anywhere. Remember my hints at the potential that you didn't necessarily know the goal of this project, and how it might, just might, not be entirely related to growing the largest buck possible?

[SAMCRO]

That's about as good as a 'regular Joe' type is going to do PS. Get a decent size property, get some decent feed on it, and just shoot what makes you happy. I also get irritated by the buck farming. It's an adulteration of the sport.

So, you're saying what Woods' does is irritating to you? You're also implying that all of us should strive to be Joe Average? Just get a "decent" property and throw down some seed and make yourself happy?

I mean, sure, that doesn't sound bad to me. However, you're missing the point entirely. Those "deer farms" are the very reason you even mentioned anything about decent feed. Thank God some folks are happy with average. The rest of the herd gets to benefit from the trickle down, and are free to bitch about it while doing so.

[SAMCRO]

Ifn' I had that kind of jack, I know what I would do. I'd buy another 100 acres north and south of the HFA. I'd put in a couple of more food plots and call it good. Screw that chit of trying to farm for big bucks. I just want to kill them.

It's just like everything else in life. You have to find your own comfort zone, and be content, but that doesn't mean you have to look at the other guy and judge his efforts. What you have, for instance, would be a paradise for many. You, and guys like you, who even have private land, are viewed with distain and contempt among some hunting groups.

You might find them writing something like "Public land is about all the average guy can do. Just find a piece, scout it out and shoot what makes you happy. Screw that trying to buy your own land thing. I just want to kill deer".

Nothing wrong with that approach, but remember that we all have a place in the food chain. I'm not really calling you out specifically, Snake, I just always find myself amazed at the small world some people live in.

[Warmouth]

That's about as good as a 'regular Joe' type is going to do PS. Get a decent size property, get some decent feed on it, and just shoot what makes you happy. I also get irritated by the buck farming. It's an adulteration of the sport.

So, you're saying what Woods' does is irritating to you? You're also implying that all of us should strive to be Joe Average? Just get a "decent" property and throw down some seed and make yourself happy?

I mean, sure, that doesn't sound bad to me. However, you're missing the point entirely. Those "deer farms" are the very reason you even mentioned anything about decent feed. Thank God some folks are happy with average. The rest of the herd gets to benefit from the trickle down, and are free to bitch about it while doing so.

Craig, you're reading to much into it. What I said was having land and planting feed was about all anyone can really do (while keeping a full time job) to improve the hunting.

Yes, I fully expected Woods to promote a type of food plot blend, and mineral mixture, that he will market. Saying that it works in the Ozarks I may have a problem with though, becuase you have to supply your own dirt from another source, aparently. Maybe they can work that into the small print somewhere.

And yes, I do not like the farming of wildlife. That is probably my biggest issue with the whole topic up to this point. There is no arguing that a lot of info has come from whitetail study, but I'm not sold on the manipulation of the land to the extent that Woods' has done as being a good thing for 'Average Joe' to mimick.


A guy could manipulate a property by putting in 8' fence with two opennings for deer travel. He could hunt those two opennings and kill the chit out of deer successfully. That doesn't necessarily make him a good hunter, or make it good for the sport.

I suppose Its the manipulation of the wildlife to that extent that sticks in my craw. When a guy manipulates the foliage, the water, the minerals, the feed, sex ratio, age structure, and anything else I might have missed, what he is hunting at that point is more of a science project than a natural animal.

[Warmouth]

Also that comment about you "slumming it second rate" was a joke, not a 'slam'. It was a good joke too.

[SAMCRO]

What I said was having land and planting feed was about all anyone can really do (while keeping a full time job) to improve the hunting.

And yes, I do not like the farming of wildlife. That is probably my biggest issue with the whole topic up to this point.

When a guy manipulates the foliage, the water, the minerals, the feed, sex ratio, age structure, and anything else I might have missed, what he is hunting at that point is more of a science project than a natural animal.

I love me some good irony. You don't like farming of wildlife, but you first mention the benefits of planting feed. Good one. What exactly do you think deer farming is, or rather, what is it to you?

1) "When a guy manipulates the foliage" - you mean like burning stuff you don't want, or planting stuff you do? Yeah, crazy, nobody does that.
2) "the water" - Digging a pond strike a chord?
3) "the minerals" - I have never read about Woods, the one we're discussing, using minerals, but everybody and their brother uses them
4) "the feed" - Seriously? You yourself just finished typing about planting feed. I guess it's OK for you, but you get to decide when it's too large scale or manipulative for others?
5) "sex ratio" - Again, seriously? What exactly is wrong with that. I've heard you yourself expouse on the idea of shooting does, so what's the big deal here? When you manipulate the sex ratio, you're talking about shooting does. That's pretty much how you do that, Dave, and this isn't exactly a new concept, nor one I think you actually have issues with.
6) "age structure" - So, you mean it's not OK to "manipulate" the age structure? You realize the only way to do that is to let deer age, right? This is also something you yourself have discussed, and unless you start planning on shooting young bucks, you're already doing it, kettle.

What you're clearly calling "deer farming" are the same techniques you yourself have discussed as good things. You're basically saying a guy who runs a brush hog, has some food plots, shoots does, and targets older bucks is a deer farmer, and you have an issue with that. Or is it that all of these things are OK as long as they'r'e done in moderation, and you get to be the judge of what's moderate?

Either way, hypocrisy is always interesting to me. I mean, I understand we all have to set our own limits, and feel free to decide we aren't comfortable when others exceed them. For me, a deer farm is a high fence operation where the herd is either decimated and replaced with, or enchanced with store-bought animals with superior genetics. That would cross my comfort barrier, but I'm not immune to the idea that I'm not the Hunting Judge and Jury. It's a big world. People view things different ways, and do different things. It doesn't mean everybody else is wrong.

[Warmouth]

Oh, I know I'm all over the lines that I am laying down myself. I know that I'm bennefitting from and suggesting the use of management practicices that biologist studied 25-50years ago. I know that something in the future may come from Woods' experiment here. So let me try to clarify.

All of these studies that pick up the info and the practices, when put to use, limit the actual hunting skills needed to be successful. I don't see myself as a deer farmer because I bought a salt block once, or because I pass on younger bucks. I don't really care about the genetics of the local herd, as much as I care about the oportunity to hunt and use hunting skills to be successful.

When I think farming for deer, the end result I am thinking of is a shooting house on stilts, with 18 deer in a food plot. That is a shady situation in my mind as being legitimate hunting. Farming is making the success in that case.

I don't think I should be writing the universal law about what is legit or not, but I don't think I should hold my ideas back about such practices either. If it is chump move in my mind, I'll say it and let the chips fall. I don't have to be right, or even influence other do follow my ideas. They can hunt the way that they hunt and good luck to them. But, it is to much like sitting in a shooting house in TX when the corn timer goes off. I have been in that situation, and I can't see that as being a satifactory hunt for me. It can be a copout, imo, for a healthy guy with hunting knowledge to pick that as his primary method of hunting. Where it's legal though, it is popular.

What it is leading to, and this affects me and my property personally, is that when small properties have to out compete each other to draw the deer. If my neighbor has awesome food plots and is drawing a majority of the deer, then where does that leave me? It leaves me having to compete for a quality hunting experience on my own small property. (you hinted at this in an earlier post) Property rights being what they are, to the winner goes the spoils, regardless of hunting skills.

So yes, we have odd choices to make here in modern day deer hunting. I'm not a big fan of the direction things are going, but to have a better than average shot, you have to manipulate some part of the formula beyond using straight up hunting skill. That is a shame in some respects.

In full disclosure, I would have put a food plot in last year if we weren't in a severe drought. I will put one in this year if our moisture level will support it. I'm not real happy about it, but it is a technique I will have to try if I am going to be more successful that I have been in the past. It is nice to have an option to improve the land, but I don't believe at all that it is strengthening my hunting skills that I have a tractor and a disc. This is where I start having a problem, when is the success more farming than hunting.

So there is another piece of my convoluted opinion.

Oh, and I will give you, what Woods has done is impressive. But, where does the trend lead us, and is what we are doing with the info gleaned from these type of projects making us better hunters, or better land manipulaters?

In the age we are in, does it even matter any more?

[PoisonSnake]

Ifn' I had that kind of jack, I know what I would do. I'd buy another 100 acres north and south of the HFA. I'd put in a couple of more food plots and call it good. Screw that chit of trying to farm for big bucks. I just want to kill them.

It's just like everything else in life. You have to find your own comfort zone, and be content, but that doesn't mean you have to look at the other guy and judge his efforts. What you have, for instance, would be a paradise for many. You, and guys like you, who even have private land, are viewed with distain and contempt among some hunting groups.

You might find them writing something like "Public land is about all the average guy can do. Just find a piece, scout it out and shoot what makes you happy. Screw that trying to buy your own land thing. I just want to kill deer".

Nothing wrong with that approach, but remember that we all have a place in the food chain. I'm not really calling you out specifically, Snake, I just always find myself amazed at the small world some people live in.

I am not judging the fellow SAMCRO... I stated early on that I applaud what he is doing. I agree with most of what you say.

Now, I am certain that a lot of his resources come from sponsors. That is OK too. But, I did some reading and I believe you and I can tour the Prooving Grounds for $500 each. Maybe it was $500 per 3 persons. But, I thought it said $500 a head. I cannot imagine first why someone would charge a fellow to show them the property. Second, I don't understand why someone would be willing to pay it.

Dave, your very definition of "deer farm" fits the HFA to a T. Also, there isn't a lot of difference in what GW is doing compared to what I am trying to do. Except for the fact that he is doing it on 1500 acres and I'm doing it on 60-70. LOL Like I said, it is amazing what a fellow can do with only a $1k to $2k investment in his property.

[SAMCRO]

I didn't know it cost that much, but I did know that paid tours of the property were available. This is just conjecture on my part, but I'm assuming a lot of Woods' work when it comes to property management is to the high dollar outfitting operations. To some of those big, managed ranches in areas like South Texas, maybe that fee, and the learning that might come with it, is worth it. Don't really know. It wouldn't be worth it to someone like me, who has no land, or even you, who has a small parcel or two, but I'm guessing there are people out there who that would appeal to.

I wouldn't mind seeing the place, and if you know me very well, you'd know I'd tour it, and nobody would ever know, if I was so inclined.

I would still like you to eventually let me hunt the HFA, and for the life of me I still don't know why you won't. You said last year I could come hunt late season, but you never followed through on that. I won't kill anything you don't want me to kill, at least as far as you'd know.

[PoisonSnake]

I think if I were to let you hunt the HFA, you would be impressed with it even though it is a small parcel of ground. It has creek-bottom, brush, mature hardwoods, and now a couple of food plots. It gets me one or two chances at a decent deer every year. I can't complain.

I'll let you hunt there late season. You can pick your spot.

[SAMCRO]

So, you're publically stating that SAMCRO will get access during the upcoming season during late season? I just want to pin you down here and I already printed out your reponse.

I'm sure I'll be impressed with it. I've seen your house and it's wall of sammich bone, and you showed me the overhead pics of the place. Plus, your recants of what you see and do out there.

As far as picking the spot, how would I do that never setting foot on the place. No, I would trust your judgement there.

[PoisonSnake]

I would let you hunt there for a day early-on, but my wife would have a cow. I've given one day rut hunts as well in the past. I know you are a killer. So, if you at least shot a doe late season, you would feel your trip was somewhat worth it.

I only saw one big buck late season this past year. But, the first weekend of December, the big deer were on their feet again and I was on a managed hunt down on Mingo.